Balance of Custom MVP Cards and Sinx Link [closed]

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thraca
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Balance of Custom MVP Cards and Sinx Link [closed]

Post by thraca »

Hello All,

I propose to remove the custom MVP card scripts EX: Doppelganger Card, Thanatos Card, GTB Card (maybe leave moonlight flower card since its not very game changing compared to the rest). Also propose to remove the linker on sinx disable in PvP/GvG maps.

#1 - Currently players are able to equip 3x doppel cards and obtain 190 aspd with 1 agi. This is quite the game changing effect because it really makes some builds that should not be possible in pre-renewal.

#2 - Currently tanks dont really have a counter due to being able to equip TGK/GR as well as reduction cards . Its insane that there are so many options regarding mvp/miniboss cards to make a tank ridiculously hard to kill, while the primary method to deal with high def chars is disabled (thanatos card) and can only be obtained when using a single[1] ice pick. The only class that can 1v1 a properly equipped LK / Paladin is a whitesmith or bragi creator since the tank is able to pot through any other damage essentially. If the examples quoted here aren't very good points then please just remember that thanatos card is essentially the counter to high def/vit builds and i think that counterplay is needed to keep PvP/GvG balanced from MVP/Miniboss carded tanks.

#3 - GTB effect being halved does allow more magic class forgiving, however if the community did decide to remove the prior custom cards i believe it would be fitting to just revert this to original status. As long as the intended effects do perform as suggested on the home page, its not a terrible addition but if its difficult to tune it to work on both PvM and PvP it would be easier to just return it to default.

#4 - The notion of this recommendation is fitting with point #2 above. There are few answers for high vit/def characters currently (pala/LK) and it honestly just seems like a far fetched customization to begin with. If players are able to utilize the dual elemental sword tactic on sinx and one shot most chars, what is the point of leaving something like soul link buff away from options for sonic blow build assassins. This could at the very least be changed to maybe 1.5x modifier but leave the cooldown reduction although I believe the default is the best option.

Please comment and share your thoughts everyone.

-thraca / Tier One
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randgrior
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Re: Balance of Custom MVP Cards and Sinx Link

Post by randgrior »

MVP cards were meant to be overpowered, however, since this is a high rate server, many have access to them. Due to this, I understand the reason for modifications for balance purposes.

1 - I would keep the effects of Doppelganger card as they were edited here. Even on official servers, its bonuses were rather small for an MVP card, having little difference to a normal Cecil Damon card, for example, so the change makes sense.

2 - I think this is the main topic of this discussion. Unfortunately, as I do not usually play PVP, I can not offer a relevant insight on this matter.

3 - I can see reason for the changes done in GTB card, however, I also agree that it is confusing to manage its effects on different scenarios presented. But, instead of returning it to default, I would apply the modifications to PVM as well.

4 - I never understood the reason for not allowing Assassin Spirit skill on PVP. Again, as I do not usually play this feature, and I seldom play Assassin/ Assassin Cross chars, I do not have ways to offer a proper opinion. Although, if it is about the effects, the idea suggested is not bad: 50% damage increase, or it could be 25%. It is up to discussion.

What I expressed are merely ideas. I apologise for any misunderstandings.

EDIT: regarding the Doppelganger card, I forgot it can be stacked, and that brings some concerns. A simple solution would be not making it stackable, like with Baphomet card - it will be the same 3x3 area no matter how many of the same cards you use - in the case of Doppelganger card, the same 30%.
Last edited by randgrior on Wed Sep 14, 2022 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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thraca
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And the bright hearth domestic burns
With Yuletide's added blaze;
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And dreams of Halcyon days.

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Re: Balance of Custom MVP Cards and Sinx Link

Post by LovelyLove »

Hi

Here are my thoughts:

#1 - I only play pre-renewal server and mostly the Doppel cards are stackable. The char which really benefit on this is SinX because they can dual weap. The downside if youre using Doppels with 1 agi is that anyone can hit you because your flee rate is so low. Thats what I did with my Sniper and its not good at all. What more on PvP.

#2 - Its no just Thanatos card that is a counter to a high def chars, there are lots really. A Champ, WS, Wiz or Prof, LK and even a Sniper can kill a Paladin. I wont go to details about it because that would be a counter to my char haha. It really just comes down to using the right cards and switching gears. Laslty, the most important of all is skill and experience. With that, you can defeat most of the chars. :)

#3 - GTB effect being halved is balanced. It would be OP if it is on default.

#4 - Im not really sure but its VERY OP for a SinX to have a soul link buff thats why its not implemented. A truly skilled SinX can kill anyone with soul link buff + switching gears when using SB. I didnt go with SinX char because you need to have a fast hand and experience which I cleary dont have lol. But yea thats what I think.
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Re: Balance of Custom MVP Cards and Sinx Link

Post by siangza »

Hi guys,

#1 For Doppel card, I think Double the effect is good enough, 3x effect seem too overpowered

#2 Thanatos card is dual edge sword anyway, I would agreed if we make it available on GVG/KOE/PVP since everyone has a chance to kill the pally, I've seen some Pally dominance the LMS and that make a lot of player quitted from that Event.

#3 For GTB, Magic class will be in deep shit if it returned to default effect. The current 50% halved effect is kind of balanced for the PVP/GVG purpose.

#4 No idea on this but if link is allowed, I would suggest 50% damage added but not double the damage.
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thraca
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Re: Balance of Custom MVP Cards and Sinx Link

Post by thraca »

LovelyLove wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 12:23 am Hi

Here are my thoughts:

#1 - I only play pre-renewal server and mostly the Doppel cards are stackable. The char which really benefit on this is SinX because they can dual weap. The downside if youre using Doppels with 1 agi is that anyone can hit you because your flee rate is so low. Thats what I did with my Sniper and its not good at all. What more on PvP.

#2 - Its no just Thanatos card that is a counter to a high def chars, there are lots really. A Champ, WS, Wiz or Prof, LK and even a Sniper can kill a Paladin. I wont go to details about it because that would be a counter to my char haha. It really just comes down to using the right cards and switching gears. Laslty, the most important of all is skill and experience. With that, you can defeat most of the chars. :)

#3 - GTB effect being halved is balanced. It would be OP if it is on default.

#4 - Im not really sure but its VERY OP for a SinX to have a soul link buff thats why its not implemented. A truly skilled SinX can kill anyone with soul link buff + switching gears when using SB. I didnt go with SinX char because you need to have a fast hand and experience which I cleary dont have lol. But yea thats what I think.


Hi Lovely

# 1 -The problem with the 99 agi is not mainly snipers as they are dependent on flee to survive with their low HP as a class. There are multiple others that obtain significant benefits such as:
Sinx: 1 agi breaker and also capable of running down players holding mouse one button since they have room for 99 vit and 99 str ), Paladin: Sacrifice spam
LK: Yes they have access to Berserk. I understand this, however once an LK is frenzied he has to commit and cant revert. With doppel cards as custom as they are it is possible to run a 190 aspd bruiser (99 str 99 vit rest dex/luk) that can just run at opponents and once on top of you theres nothing you can do.
Creator: 190 ASPD which is so easily accessible using 3 doppel. Originally when stacking cecils for as much agi you can get as an afterthought over 99 int and 99 dex where with 3 doppels your really a creo with 99 int 99 dex 99 agi benefits.
Whitesmith: similar as reason for creo above, essentially have all the benefits of 99 agi vice flee without investing 600 status points into the stat.
Wizard: Instant cast with 190 aspd? lol.
Prof: Same as Wiz class.
The list goes on. For 3 weapon slots you get a maxed out stat or ~50 levels of status points for almost free. This tactic works best with tank classes because they not only have the Large HP pools for their class, but they are also able to get 190 aspd with spamming pots and become a freight train that cant be stopped when coming at you.


#2 - The essence of this topic as stated earlier is there is access to HP stacking / reduction type boss cards however the boss card that is a direct threat to the classes using these with high def/vit is disabled.
Champ: I dont believe a champ that is geared for pvp is going to 1 shot asura a boss carded paladin or lord knight that is spamming pots running at them. With no access to Safety wall, they will simply be ran down.
Whitesmith: Whitesmith is the only one that has a fair shot due to the highest DPS skill in the game of cart term.
Wiz/Prof: Wiz/Prof will need support to stop a 50k hp 99 aspd LK/Paladin rushing them.
LK: against other LK/Paladin can essentially be a never ending battle, whoever runs out of white pots in their storage first wins.
Sniper: This one is laughable. I will tell you that without +9 glorious hunter bow there is no chance of getting a potting LK/Paladin HP bar to 0 even with proper 99 agi 190 aspd full dex and running incan card. It just doesnt work because the hp pool is too large. I would have time as a potting tank to run out of white pots, go to storage retrieve 1000 more, and still be alive in time to ygg berry tens of thousands of hit points back.

#3 - I am in agreeance with you with GTB card that it is OP. I could see this one being reverted or remaining same as long as most players happy.

#4 - Yeah I understand it is strong. If reduced it would be nice for it to be adjusted to be a viable option to deal with the tank meta in our server. If sinx can used ranged elemental swords to one shot everything but tanks from a range after cloak it doesn't make sense to take away the skill they would literally have to be in sight/ruwach range to do the same thing and not from a safe distance.


Thanks for your response Lovely appreciate input and mainly wanted to challenge point #1 if you were unaware of the scale of how OP getting 190 aspd for 3 doppelgangers on a knife[3] is and point #2 to really emphasize what the issue is on our server with how tanks have no significant edited drawback to stacking high def/vit while offensive chars are blocked from the proper way to counter them with the custom edit of thanatos card.

-thraca / Tier One
Last edited by thraca on Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Balance of Custom MVP Cards and Sinx Link

Post by LovelyLove »

Hello thraca

Yea no probs just sharing my thoughts :)

#1 - The beauty of this game is that theres no char that is above them all.
There are lots to consider not just the atk speed. Yea you have the atk speed and rdy to kill but you got frozen or stone cruse then youre just a sitting duck. Thats what I encounter with my Paladin, so I have to switch armor. After switching my armor to Unfro, I cant kill anymore because I have low hp pool which the skill Sacrifice depend on. So for me, stacking Doppels is okay. It just really depends on the player.

#2 - Thanatos is not just the only card that is threat, theres one more card I think but I wont tell haha.
You gotta believe when a Champ can kill me. Just ask Dexter or That Idiot just killed me earlier on LMS.
Wiz/Prof: Keyword - Safety Wall
LK - The second threat to all char because of the Bowling Bash. I hate that skill which can kill anyone including me lol.
Sniper: I can guarantee you that it is possible if youre using the correct skill because I experience it :D

You really get a lot of experience by playing with other players.
Thats why we have to experiment on what works and whatnot.
Even my char is still testing some stuff to get better. :)
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teralava
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Re: Balance of Custom MVP Cards and Sinx Link

Post by teralava »

Idk about the sinx link removal, i think damage wise is insane, but even with powerful build, sinx will hardly kill a tank, not forget to mention ppl can also use safety wall, ruwach damaged sinx while cloak, tiny HP they have... everything have weaknesses right? Hahahaha thats my opinion as sinx main tho im still not very good...
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Re: Balance of Custom MVP Cards and Sinx Link

Post by luubii »

my 2cents.

MVP top rank is 1k
PVP top rank is 10kills

whatever you are doing is not working, I'd suggest change regardless on what it is.

now my personal opnion, even on 2% MVP cards are way to easy to get here as you can see they selling them like drake card for 5 MC, either make changes for all of them to adapt in a ecosystem that will make sense or just leave them all as standard as you don't mess with the eco of the game, if makes sense.
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Deathwing
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Re: Balance of Custom MVP Cards and Sinx Link

Post by Deathwing »

It seems there is a tension between:

1) striving for competitive balance
2) staying true to the vision of no custom equipment/no gameplay modifications

We can't fully have both, since the original RO numbers are quite imbalanced in some ways. (i.e. original Doppel being useless, original GTB being overwhelmingly strong, etc.)

Personally, I hope MindRO stays true to #2, since the things that drew me in were:
- Nostalgia. If there's too much custom stuff, I lose that connection with my childhood.
- I don't have to deal with learning (much) new stuff

That said, I do think if a card is so OP it completely warps the meta, or so underpowered that it is useless (not even niche), adjustments can be made while still staying true to the vision.

If I had to prescribe a solution/guideline, I would say:
- Suppose a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is useless and 10 is super overpowered.
- If a card was OP (>=8) in original RO, it should be tweaked to be a ~6.5. That way, it's not completely meta-warping, but still feels satisfying/highly desirable.
- If a card was useless (<=3) in original RO, it should tweaked to be a ~4.5. That way, it is usable/useful, but not necessarily popular, to avoid feeling like the server is too custom.
- If a card is between a 4 and a 7, it's probably close enough to balanced that it isn't worth touching, for the sake of not having too many changes.

Even if we don't go with those specific guidelines, I think some consistent guideline needs to be established, otherwise the changes look kind of arbitrary.
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Re: Balance of Custom MVP Cards and Sinx Link

Post by Frilly »

Game design is always a gamble.

If we leave MVP cards in play, PvP will always remain in a highly 1v1 state. This has largely been true across all the servers I've played.
- No stacked GvG because MVP cards solve problems for players instead of requiring them to group up.
- AD largely useless. GR counter is Asura + Frozen state. AD doesn't work at all.
- High Vit/Def characters become exponentially stronger with MVP cards, but PVP becomes a potion war between bruiser tanks instead of a proper fight.

If we completely remove MVP cards, the game reverts to the standard midrate pre-renewal meta and all the fancy classes these guys are using above become useless.
- MR Paladin/Bowling Bash LK basically becomes useless because they can't kill anything due to excessive pot usage.
- Midrate RO revolves around champs and AD because healing is so overbearing. Only the most OP skills are worth anything.

I think the solution becomes apparent that RO's issue is the abundance of potion spam. If you added a 0.5s CD to potions, it would dramatically fix this issue. Some comments below:
- This is a very custom solution. I'm sure some people will not be fans. And we'd still have to deal with the ease of farming thousands of ygg berries to spam them to heal 100% hp/sp.
- GvGs will not be affected. GvG healing is NOT done with pots. It's done with SPP Spam. CD to potions will not change proper GvG Meta.
- PvP will be far more enjoyable now that tanks cannot sit there out-healing each other. Even LKs with GR can be killed, eventually. It becomes a matter of skill instead of 1 shot.
- There's no amount of balancing that will actually fix RO. If we were to balance MVP cards, this would take weeks upon weeks of minor tweaking from Oreki, like any other competitive PVP game out there. Sure we can curb the outliers, but that just leaves other OP cards.

RE: The initial suggestions:
- The 4 suggestions in the original post don't really matter when taking the issue in stride. Do as you may with them.
- I'll even go as far as to humor thraca/Tier One: http://calc.free-ro.com/#fawbLabbIbLaba ... aabaaaaSaa
- No Doppleganger cards, 1 second emperium break with the same gospel setup and peripheral MVP cards. The damage from stacking a ton of dopples is minimal at best. The strongest argument PVP wise I'd see for this issue is Bragi Creo not needing ASPD Song, HighWiz with 2x dopple, or Sinx with 3 dopples spamming bolts with elemental sword and ice bolt scrolls. I'd still consider these minor issues.

"OMG This won't work" See the first sentence.
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